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DeutschTemplate talk:History of the Priamurye region
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A few problems. "Russian Manchuria" is inappropriate, I doubt this is the term the Russians use to refer to the region. Secondly, is it even necessary to make this template? Using the History of China (or even the History of Russia) template as an example, the HoC template is entirely divided up into historical periods in the History of China. This history template on the other hand, is littered with ethnic groups, border conflicts, treaties, regional governments, redundant Chinese historical entities and even this guy. I don't think there is a real need for this template.
Removed the template from various articles because there is a no real need for it. The History of Northeast China/Manchuria template was made in place of History of China template as a compromise. This template feels very tacky and is something that most of the articles in question can do without. This is not even mentioning the formatting/layout problems associated with the template. Assault11 22:13, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- As you can see this template is still a stub so please be patient, and help to expand it instead of criticizing in addition to that please be more respectful to with THIS DIPLOMAT Thank you.Whlee 08:48, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
- I have removed the template from a few of the Chinese-themed articles again. There needs to be more discussions about the template before fully implementing it as there are some outstanding problems associated with it.
- Also, the Qing Dynasty is a Chinese dynasty, period. If you have problems with it, take it up with the Qing Dynasty article talk page, not here. Assault11 23:33, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
- - I know that Qing Dynasty period (1644-1911/1912) is a Chinese dynasty period.
- - I know that Nan Ming Dynasty period (1644-1661) is a Chinese dynasty period.
- - I know that Yuan Dynasty period (1260-1368) is a Chinese dynasty period but they were Mongols.
- By the way, why do we say Mongol Invasions of Japan then, instead of Chinese Invasion of Japan (1274-1281) because they occured during the Yuan Dynasty period, didn't they???
- Do not underestimate my knowledge in Chinese history.
- If you correct so quickly the affirmation about Manchu-Russian border wars. I think you would probably know who were the commanders of the Manchu Qing/Korean Joseon allied army against the Russians?
- I will propose you a suggestion although we are not agree about the use of the terms Chinese, Manchu etc... I will therefore use the term Qing as a compromise and hope that there will not be any dispute on it. Will you accept it?
- As you can see this template is still a stub so please be patient, and help to expand it instead of criticizing in addition to that please be more respectful to with THIS DIPLOMAT Thank you.Whlee 08:48, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Whlee 15:11, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
- You are taking things out of context here. Fact of the matter is that the Qing is a Chinese entity, first and foremost. This period took place after the Ming-Qing transition. As was the case with the conflict, the subsequent border wars (Yakesa 雅克萨) and treaties were largely referred to as Sino-Russian treaties - e.g. Treaty of Nerchinsk/Nibuchu (中俄尼布楚条约) [1] [2]. Also, IIRC, the Russian contingent were composed of mostly Cossacks, why didn't you rename the border conflict to Manchu-Cossack wars? It is quite obvious that your position is wholly untenable. If you already agree that the Qing is Chinese, I see no reason why you ought to object in the first place. I will be renaming the border conflict shortly, but I will leave it for now in case you have anything else to add. Assault11 21:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
- The founder of Qing Dynasty, Aisin Gioro Nurhaci (Qing Taizu) was he a Chinese? No he wasn't. The Battle of Sarhu was it a Cilwar between Chinese? Qing Empress were coming from various Jurchens clans have a look at Empress XiaoCi for instance if you don't believe me. What about the campaign of Albazin (or Yakesa 雅克萨) zh:Image:Yakeshazhizhan.png. I can read Chinese caracters : movements of Qing Army (Red Arrow) mouvements of Russian Amry (Blue Arrow). I can admit that Qing was a Chinese dynasty in the later period (Puyi wasn't able to speak Manchu language) but at the time of Nurhaci, Shunzhi and Kangxi it was at first a Manchu dynasty. As i tell you previously the term Qing is the solution of our dispute because we are both agree that the Qing Empire fought the Russians before the signature of Nerchinsk Treaty, right? In addition to that writing Sino-Russian will be confused with Sino-Soviet border conflit. Whlee 19:02, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
- What's your point? The subsequent attack on Yakesa by the Qing resulted in the Treaty of Nibuchu/Nerchinsk - a Sino-Russian treaty (refer to above sources). Not only that, the Qing also employed former soldiers of Zheng Chenggong from the south against the Russians. It is clear that these border conflicts are Sino-Russian in that the Qing represented China. And the fact that these battles occurred after the Ming-Qing transition is enough to warrant a Sino-Russian label on this conflict.
- And yes, as far as the definition of "Chinese" is concerned, Nuerhachi is Chinese. You still have not answered my question regarding why you did not rename the border conflict as "Manchu-Cossack" wars. Manchu and the Qing are Chinese entities, period. If you have a problem with this, take it up with the Qing Dynasty or the 56 minority ethnic groups of China talk page, not here. Assault11 19:34, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
- The founder of Qing Dynasty, Aisin Gioro Nurhaci (Qing Taizu) was he a Chinese? No he wasn't. The Battle of Sarhu was it a Cilwar between Chinese? Qing Empress were coming from various Jurchens clans have a look at Empress XiaoCi for instance if you don't believe me. What about the campaign of Albazin (or Yakesa 雅克萨) zh:Image:Yakeshazhizhan.png. I can read Chinese caracters : movements of Qing Army (Red Arrow) mouvements of Russian Amry (Blue Arrow). I can admit that Qing was a Chinese dynasty in the later period (Puyi wasn't able to speak Manchu language) but at the time of Nurhaci, Shunzhi and Kangxi it was at first a Manchu dynasty. As i tell you previously the term Qing is the solution of our dispute because we are both agree that the Qing Empire fought the Russians before the signature of Nerchinsk Treaty, right? In addition to that writing Sino-Russian will be confused with Sino-Soviet border conflit. Whlee 19:02, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
- You are taking things out of context here. Fact of the matter is that the Qing is a Chinese entity, first and foremost. This period took place after the Ming-Qing transition. As was the case with the conflict, the subsequent border wars (Yakesa 雅克萨) and treaties were largely referred to as Sino-Russian treaties - e.g. Treaty of Nerchinsk/Nibuchu (中俄尼布楚条约) [1] [2]. Also, IIRC, the Russian contingent were composed of mostly Cossacks, why didn't you rename the border conflict to Manchu-Cossack wars? It is quite obvious that your position is wholly untenable. If you already agree that the Qing is Chinese, I see no reason why you ought to object in the first place. I will be renaming the border conflict shortly, but I will leave it for now in case you have anything else to add. Assault11 21:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree "Russian Manchuria" is not appropriate. Like I talked about in Template_History_of_Manchuria, most all sources define Manchuria = Northeast China whether today or historic Manchuria/Northeast China and whether with current RFE included or not. Accordingly RFE and Manchuria are mutually exclusive. I doubt too that Russian would use the word Manchuria to describe their territory, Manchuria is a Northeast Asian word and Russia is a western country. Your most accurate template name for that region would be "History of Historic Outer Manchuria/Northeast China" or "History of Primorsky Krai and Southern Khabarovsk Krai". That region is no longer Manchuria/Northeast China with or without "Outer" or "Russian" qualificaiton. Wiki pokemon 07:11, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
- I will make some researches on it. But at the moment we will keep Russian/Outer Manchuria, we will rename it later if necessary. Regards. Whlee 08:48, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
- Priamurye in Russian is the the area around the Amur River englobing : Amur Oblast (formerly called Priamurye), Primorye, Sakhalin, Jewish Autonomous Oblast and the southern part of Khabarovsk Krai. Priamurye region is mostly used in history and geography books to refer to the area around the Amur River.Whlee 16:44, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
- I am glad you finally found an appropriate name for the region. I however feel that it is not a good idea to link it to Outer Manchuria. First, and you already know that Manchuria is dubious and Outer Manchuria is even more misleading. Second Manchuria and Russia are mutually exclusive. I am sure russians will not be happy to click on the link, and found to be directed to the Outer Manchuria page. I suggest not linking it to anything.Wiki Pokemon 19:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
- Priamurye in Russian is the the area around the Amur River englobing : Amur Oblast (formerly called Priamurye), Primorye, Sakhalin, Jewish Autonomous Oblast and the southern part of Khabarovsk Krai. Priamurye region is mostly used in history and geography books to refer to the area around the Amur River.Whlee 16:44, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
- I will make some researches on it. But at the moment we will keep Russian/Outer Manchuria, we will rename it later if necessary. Regards. Whlee 08:48, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Russian Far East is way much bigger than the region this template is attempting to describe. I suggest using "History of Priamurye Region" (plain, no link here) plus two extra lines below it, "Primorye Krai" and "Souththern Khabarovsk Krai" (link to Primorye Krai and Khabarovsk Krai respectively. This should be more accurate.Wiki Pokemon 21:46, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
- Interesting suggestionWhlee 07:25, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Why do you include Heilongjiang, I am curious? Do Russian really consider it part of the Primorye region, today or past? Are there map or text description?
Wiki Pokemon 16:48, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- Heilongjiang is included because that region shared a common history with Priamurye until 1858 when they are both definively separated. Tungusic peoples lived on both part of the Amur river banks for instance the Nanai/Hezhe, the same reason for the Yeren Jurchens, The Shiwei (you can see the region where the Shwei lived in 820 i was inspired by a Chinese map and Chinese schronicles to draw their region) , and the Mohe. Manchu-Cossack war (1652-1689) was a conflict to better determine the sphere of influence of the Russian Empire and the Qing Empire. The first round was won by the Qing in 1689 (they englobed both Heilongjiang and Priamurye) under the gouvernement-genreral of Heilongjiang but the second round was won by the Russian Empire in 1858 against the declining Qing Empire in 1858 (Aigun Trety).Whlee 17:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
